MR Round Table: Free to Be You and Me

Courtney Act: My name is Courtney Act, and I am a singer. I am a male-bodied person, although sometimes I am a boy and sometimes I am a girl. I was just reading an article on Ruby Rose of Orange is the New Black — she was using the term “Gender-Fluid.” Then I saw Miley (Cyrus) tweeting that she was “Gender-Expansive.” I liked that term.

I’ve just been having fun this last year, really discovering the gray area and not needing to fit into a box. It’s been a really interesting year for me — I’m still the same person, but before I was really trying to agree with what people considered me: a boy who dresses in drag as a job.

I like living as both a boy and a girl. I could have been a police man if I wanted a uniform, but I chose to dress like Taylor Swift meets The Coven today. I love getting to dress up. It’s part of my gender expression. That must sound kind of confusing.

Amelia Diamond: Well, I think it is really confusing, which is why were are sitting down with you. There’s an Invisibilia podcast episode about how society prefers categories in order to understand the world. But like you said, there is a gray area. And I think it’s about finding the comfort in, or being okay with not quite understanding the gray area.

Courtney: Totally. If I was put it in a box, I am a boy who dresses as a girl. And that’s pretty much how I identify. In the past, I did drag as a performance. But, in the past year I became friends with Chaz Bono. He later said to me that (when we first met) he thought I was transphobic because of the way I was talking. As we spoke more, he sort of unfolded the puzzle and gave me these other ideas and concepts about gender and sexuality.

For most of my twenties I really was trying to be a man. I felt like I had to have this muscle-y body to be valued as a man in society. I struggled with that a lot — and I know it’s quite ironic, as I sit here like this. But I thought it was my masculinity that made me attractive to other guys. I had this imposition of what being a man was. But then, in talking through Chaz, I was able to let go of that. I had this real liberation.

I am still probably just as much a man as I am when I am dressed as Shane, but I now I feel a little bit more free about the whole thing. I don’t have to be a man, I can just be me.

Leandra Medine: When you are singing, you generally do so as Courtney?

Courtney: Yes.

Leandra: And do you think that speaks to anything? Is there a particular reason why you chose your female identity?

Courtney: I think I seem much more interesting when I dress up as a woman. I can have wigs and makeup and costumes and high heels, and I can have blue hair or pink hair. There really are no limitations in dressing up as a woman. Doing what I do, it goes beyond being a woman. One time, I had these giant mechanical wings.

And then growing up, I was always inspired by female performers like the Spice Girls, and Fran from The Nanny. I think it was how unashamed she was. She was this complete fish out of water, who didn’t care. She was just herself. As a male performer, there were very few other male acts who were dressing up in such a way. I guess Elton John, Scissor Sisters, even KISS to some extent, but there wasn’t that same visual freedom. But I think that really was a cultural thing, that men couldn’t be expressive as women are.

Leandra: Is your family supportive?

Courtney: Yes. They are very supportive. Which is probably why I have my attitude towards it.

When I came out as gay to them, and that I did drag — I did that together. We were at dinner, and I had texted that day. We’d actually tried to talk about it the night before, but that didn’t work, so I went home and sat and drank a bottle of wine and watched Touched by an Angel on TV. As an 18-year-old, I was very scared about the whole idea of coming out to my mom and dad. And besides that, it was the year 2000, which was fifteen years ago, so things were still a bit different. I remember texting Mum — and texting was very new at this point, so I think of myself as quite progressive — “I am gay.” Send.

And she said, “That’s nice, dear, see you at dinner.” And I was like, oh, is that it? You’re not going to disown me? There was none of that. And we got to dinner that night and talked about it.

It turns out that my dad lived with six drag queens back in the seventies. And I was like, “Okay, shush for now, this is MY coming out story!”

Leandra: Are people surprised when they meet you as Courtney, but then find out you are transgender?

Courtney: Well, I use the term gender-queer now. I don’t use the terms transgender. Because I live as a boy and I dress as Courtney. It’s funny, because I am learning new terms everyday. And generally, gender-queer does fall under the category of transgender, according to the GLAAD website, but I think transgender oddly has almost become polarized as well, where you are assigned one sex at birth and transition to become the opposite sex — there doesn’t seem to be a lot of gray area in that. You are what you are.

Chaz actually asked me to come and speak at a group that he facilitates for young trans kids to be the spokesperson for those who didn’t feel the need to transition. I am comfortable with my own biology, I guess. I don’t feel the need to buy hormones or alter any physical parts. I am quite happy as living as a boy, and sometimes dressing as a girl or a boy.

Leandra: What did you think of Caitlyn Jenner’s transition?

Courtney: I loved the Diane Sawyer interview, I thought it was really well-done and really inspiring. And to hear then-Bruce speak so confidently and without shame, that was really great and even unusual. The Vanity Fair cover was such a big and amazing thing. It’s her glamor shots of the moment — and she is completely entitled to those.

It did, though, turn the story into something less about the journey and more about her looks. Like, “Wow, doesn’t Caitlyn look good!” It still played into pop culture’s ideas about beauty standards and showed how much scrutiny women are under in terms of appearance and in terms of comparing themselves to other women. But I think she is a great person to be an activist. I think that only good will come of it.

I was in Sydney for Pride this year — it’s called Mardi Gras in Sydney, actually — and there were these two trans-women who did not fit into society’s ideal of beauty, they were clearly just people who wanted to live this way because it’s how they felt. They were transgender, but they didn’t necessarily “pass” as women. That term, “pass,” essentially means you are able to live unnoticed as a woman in society — and these women did not pass, but they were still so happy. Happy to be there, very comfortable. It was just really inspiring to speak to people who were comfortable to be nothing but themselves.

Caitlyn Jenner is a trailblazer. Laverne Cox, Janet Mock, Chaz Bono — when I listen to any of them speak, they connect with the audience on a human level and transcend the fact that they are different. We realize that our similarities are greater than our differences.

Leandra: It’s very important, in general, to look at the humanity behind all of this. I think about that a lot — even in terms of my own political point of view and connecting with people who maybe do not agree with it.

Can you think of any moments where you have felt discriminated against?

Amelia: You know, I have heard there is discrimination within the gay community itself. You hear that sometimes gay men can discriminate against lesbians…

Leandra: Well, it may be considered something similar to fashion. We are community of outsiders, we are the community of art school nerds and freaks, the outcasts. And we come into our micro-world, where everyone is like us, but we still do not want to let onto the fact that everyone is different, because we are finally inside and we have to act like the cool kids. When, fundamentally, we are all seeking acceptance.

Courtney: I think that is a universal theme. When you come out as gay, you don’t instantly lose of all of your other insecurities. In the Western world, we are all brought up with very similar ideas and values, and I think that unfortunately breeds a lot of insecurity in people.

One time, I was dressed as a boy, and I was coming down the escalator, and there was this cute guy — and at the time I would say to people, “I love you!” — and I said “I love you!” to him, and he was like, “Are you some kind of faggot?”

“Yes, I guess,” I said. And then he just started going off on me! I didn’t say this to him, but I wanted to: “It’s not like I put my penis is your bum.” I literally just said “I love you.”

Amelia: Which is the nicest thing to say to someone!

Courtney: This guy had such a reaction that he got angry and aggressive and felt he had to react in such a way. And I thought, What is happening inside his mind that is making him react like this?

That’s what I always think about in instances (like this), that it has less to do with what I am feeling about the situation, and more to do with what they are feeling and what they are going through. What is going on in their lives that they feel the need to act negatively?

Amelia: What do you say to people, or young kids, asking you, “How do I cope with feeling this way?” Some people are probably experiencing what you experienced that day in the airport all the time. Maybe even from their own family.

Courtney: For me, some of the biggest teachers were books. I also recommend to keep a gratitude journal. I learned about that from Oprah.

You have to acknowledge that the bad exists. You can’t live in a fairy world and think that like everything is okay, but you do have a choice on what you focus on. The gratitude journal has been a huge help, picking five things in my day that I’m grateful for, especially if it was a bad day. Realizing that there are always positive things to focus on

Leandra: What are the elements of being a man that you still really enjoy and identify with?

Courtney: I like having a male body, I like my penis, and I like having sex. If sexuality exists on a scale, with the Kinsey Scale from zero to six, I would probably put myself somewhere in the middle, on the gay side, but closer to the middle than a lot of gay men. And then if gender is on the same spectrum, I’d probably put myself closer to the middle as well. I don’t even know what things are necessarily male and what things are necessarily female anymore, but, I guess being a boy is much more comfortable than being a girl.

Leandra: Huh. How so?

Courtney: Well, just like flat shoes, shorts, loose underwear, no bras, no weaves, no makeup. There are so many things. And I mean, I think that doing what I do as Courtney, I’m also not just becoming a girl, I’m becoming society’s most ideal expression of femininity — I almost do it as a tongue and cheek thing to say, “This is what society’s ideals of beauty are, and look how manufactured and created it is, even though the objective is for it to look natural.”

Those ideas of male and female and what men and what women “should do” seems slightly absurd to me, because we weren’t born wearing dresses and pants. Gender, clearly, is something that society has invented. Yes, women have different bodies, men have different bodies, our brains might think differently, they are wired differently, but the actual idea of gender seems like somebody invented that.

Leandra: Gender is a construct.

Amelia: Does it feel like a backhanded compliment, or somehow rude, if someone says to you something like, “You’re so pretty as a girl.”

Courtney: “Oh my god, you’re prettier than I am, and I’m a real girl.”

Amelia: Yeah, does that feel fake to you?

Courtney: I understand it, and I get completely what they’re saying, but…a lot of comments are based on physical aesthetics. We talked about Caitlyn Jenner “looking like a woman,” and “passing,” and that becoming the objective. But for me, I get frustrated with the concept that people have to look any way at all, and that were constantly comparing and making that judgment.

Krista Lewis: Do you feel that people interact with you differently, in terms of their idea of how they should treat a specific gender?

Courtney: The most obvious one is straight men, because dressed like this, straight men flirt, sexually objectify, they treat you completely differently. As a boy, I feel intimidated quite often by those alpha-male type guys when I’m Shane. But when I’m Courtney, I could read the back of a milk carton and they’re putty in my hand. It’s fascinating to observe the power of a woman from a slightly outside point of view.

Amelia: You said that Chaz Bono said that you were using some wrong terms. It is very confusing. I would love to make a guide. For example, I didn’t know “transvestite” was a derogatory term. I probably only got that word from Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Courtney: GLAAD has a great media guide. There’s two things: there’s gender, and there’s sexuality. Actually, there’s gender sexuality, and sex. Sex is what’s between your legs, gender is what’s between your ears, and then sexuality is who you’re sexually attracted to. There are different parts to those three categories, but your sex is what your biological gender is. That doesn’t just mean your external genitals. Men have testes, women have ovaries, the different chromosomes. Your gender is how you feel about it, and your gender expression is how you then present yourself to the world.

Transgender is a word that is about transition, people who are assigned one sex at birth and are transitioning to become another gender.

Transvestite is the older term, we now use the word “cross dresser.” It’s the updated version.

Amelia: And cross dresser versus drag queen?

Courtney: The words “cross dresser” and “drag queen” are similar, but different. Drag is often about performance. The sexuality of the person isn’t relevant, but usually drag queens are gay whereas cross dressers usually identify as straight.

We don’t use the word “tranny” anymore.

Leandra: You’re saying that you identify as genderqueer. But “queer” on it’s own is also kind of a no-no, isn’t it?

Courtney: No. Queer is a yes-yes.

Leandra: I think of jocks yelling at drama kids. Like, “Shut up, queer!” You know?

Courtney: Well, it used to be, but it’s one of those words that’s been reclaimed, I guess.

Leandra: We’re taking back the camel toe at Man Repeller.

Courtney: There you go.

Amelia: In the word-sense, and visually.

Courtney: My camel toe has an unfair advantage. And it could do with a pedicure, quite frankly. But queer now is a word that represents a modern movement about sexuality — people who don’t identify as heterosexual or homosexual. It’s almost like a political statement. And same for me with genderqueer. Its less of an actual thing for me and more of a statement.

Amelia: Genderqueer and queer mean two different things?

Courtney: Yeah, so genderqueer is about your gender and queer is about your sexuality. It’s confusing because they both have the word queer in them.

I didn’t grow up with the “get out of the bathroom, you queer” generation. I first learned about queer from a queer-identifying girl who explained to me that it had a lot more of a political influence and it was about not conforming to heteronormative ideals about sexuality.

The term queer could also be for a straight guy who finds himself attracted to another guy or a boy dressed as a girl, so it’s kind of an umbrella. It’s about not identifying with that heteronormative idea of sexuality.

Amelia: So, it’s more all-encompassing than bisexual.

Courtney: Yeah, because bisexual means you like to have sex with men and you like to have sex with women. Then there’s pansexual (pansexuality is “a sexual attraction, romantic love, or emotional attraction toward people of any sex or gender identity”), and polyamorous (polyamory is “the practice, desire, or acceptance of intimate relationships that are not exclusive with respect to other sexual or intimate relationships, with knowledge and consent of everyone involved”), and there’s all these other terms and buzzwords

Leandra: Got it. All I have to say is you’ve got really beautiful eyes. Not for a guy, not for a girl, just for a person.

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